Speaker1: [00:00:00] Welcome to this really special episode of Voices of Care here from Birmingham's NEC and The Care Show 2024. The theme is collaboration in social care and we've got some fabulous guests. Skills for Care, Home Care Association, National Care Forum. We're talking about inclusion in social care for the workforce, the importance of clinical excellence and empathy. So please join us for what I'm sure is going to be a fabulously insightful episode, speaking some great leaders at a transformational time for social care.

Speaker1: [00:00:37] Now I have to actually predicted that, having met you, I think over the summer that this conversation might be well, how has your summer been in all? A fairly easy-going, but I think it's been extraordinarily busy.

Speaker2: [00:00:49] There's not been any easy-going.

Speaker1: [00:00:50] Not at all. can we just start with Darzi first? Because obviously the seminal report I know it's about the NHS and that was the remit. But a couple of interesting things that were definitely brought up, which are social care.

Speaker2: [00:01:00] Yeah. I mean, clearly I think that, you know, it's very helpful always when these reports make reference to the fact that you cannot address all the challenges within health without addressing the challenges within social care. So those are useful things. And we had the Covid inquiry talking about the same thing and a report on Module 1. I guess the challenge with all of this is to continue. For us all, as the sector to continue to recognise that social care is there as a service in its own right and helpful as Darzi is, if that becomes the locus of attention of how to address the challenges facing social care, there'll be a whole host of people who miss out in relation to any reform tied around that, as well as a whole host of services and models of delivery.

Speaker1: [00:01:40] Well, that advocacy for the whole sector. I guess I should actually belatedly congratulate you for taking the role of the Care Provider Alliance. So that's the voice, you've got a busy 12 months ahead?

Speaker2: [00:01:51] A busy 12 months ahead.

Speaker1: [00:01:53] Now you'll be aware that Oxford University's Department of Social Policy have published a report literally days ago, and I bring it up because, of course, the National Care Forum represents not for profit sector. And I just wanted your opinion on that, because my reading of that, I think the opinion is that there's been a huge amount of outsourcing predominantly to the for-profit in residential care I'm talking about, as well as children's services. But the finding was that there's a paradox at the heart of social care relating to the fact that public and third sector, that's the phrase they use, providers outscore on quality measures. I just want to get your views.

Speaker2: [00:02:36] It's an interesting report and something I need to spend more time looking at the detail of, because it only came out, as you say, the other day. I mean, I think what I'm interested in, I guess, is where the government takes its kind of commitments around the National Care Service. Pre-election, it talked quite explicitly about the notion of creating a framework which would have a sort of public service ethos at its heart. And I guess the reports that, you know, separate out different types of provision will be important in terms of helping them think through some of what that framework might look like. 

Speaker1: [00:03:10] Let's wait and see what that looks like, as you say. 

Speaker2: [00:03:13] I think with any change, if there is going to be a change around the way that care is delivered, and this goes for whether we're talking about fair pay agreements or whether we're talking about the National Care Service or whether we're talking about for-profit versus not for profit provision, then there has to be a reasonable time frame of plan so that the sector can adjust and change, and that, you know, that we can really ensure that we have a continuity of care and a sustainability agenda that sits behind it. So I think I'm not for any kind of rapid shock treatment, but I think it's definitely about working through more quickly than is currently indicated some ideas of what the future framework might look like, so that people can plan their provision accordingly. 

Speaker1: [00:03:59] And that will also be important in terms of the regulatory framework I'm bound to reference of course, the CQC. It's well-trailed challenges, and we have a new CEO appointed, Sir Julian Hartley. So I think you welcomed that appointment. But there's a lot for them to do in terms of winning trust. 

Speaker2: [00:04:19] Absolutely. I mean, you know, I think I can talk about this with sort of those two hats on. So from the CPA perspective, The CPA is leading a review of the SAF, trying to get really into the detail of providers perspectives,

Speaker1: [00:04:34] The single assessment framework.

Speaker2: [00:04:35] The single assessment framework. And I think that's really important because the work that's happened to date hasn't had that granularity or that direct feedback from people on the front line, those who've been through an inspection under the single assessment framework, and those who've been preparing for it. So I'm really pleased that we'll have an opportunity to give voice to social care. And I think in the context of the new appointment of the chief exec, I think the opportunity to be able to deliver some really clear messages from social care about what it wants, about the future of regulation, that's going to be vital. And I'm confident that Sir Julian Hartley will take on the role, recognising the full breadth of the services that the CQC has to interact with. And actually, you know, understanding that he's come from a background, not just his most recent background, but prior to that, working within a sort of health and care community in Leeds, which actually has a very strong reputation around the integration of health and care. So that gives me some confidence.

Speaker1: [00:05:33] Absolutely. And you've been very busy on the party conference circuit, etc. and with the budget upon us and the review, I just wanted to get your perspective on that. There's been County Council Network report showing a £54 billion hole in the next five years. So we're in very constrained circumstances. So, you know, what are you looking for in terms of the government? 1 or 2 key things, because you've been advocating, as has the whole sector, very strongly for some immediate action?

Speaker2: [00:05:57] Yeah, I mean, I think there is an absolute drive around sustainability. So, you know, we have to have some confidence that the level of funding that is going to be provided will cover off costs so that the market sustainability funding information came out at the beginning of this week. And what that showed was that across the board, the average uplifts for care providers had been around somewhere, depending on which type of service, somewhere between 6 and 7%. Well, we know that the national minimum wage went up by 9.8% to whatever it was this year.

Speaker1: [00:06:32] So do the maths.

Speaker2: [00:06:33] The maths doesn't work. So if we continue to go forward in that vein, then we're going to really hit a crisis now. So I think what we're looking for is some commitments around sustainability so that the things that providers need to do in order to be good employers in order to deliver quality services are possible and funded. So that's an immediate thing. And then really to try and rapidly set out what the framework is for the future so that people can make investments that make sense. You know, we've got a lot of people here today who will be being courted by tech companies and those who have got some fantastic offers, what the future looks like. I also chair the Global Aging Network, so I'm looking all the time across the world about the really exciting things that are happening in other countries around care. That should be what we're aiming for.

Speaker1: [00:07:22] But we need the stability.

Speaker2: [00:07:23] We need the stability right now in this budget. But we need that spending review to be hugely ambitious for social care. 

Speaker1: [00:07:29] Absolutely. One final question, if I may, and forgive me if this is... I don't mean to offend, but the acronym WAG is not something I normally associate with you. But I believe you're attending a dinner dialogue with WAG. Meaning women who have achieved greatness in social care. You received an OBE for all the things you've done. I just want to spend two seconds on some of your inspirations and your motivations for what you do. 

Speaker2: [00:07:53] Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that I am absolutely committed to the notion of social justice, and lots of people will say that. And I suppose I feel I'm trying to live that. I've spent all my life working in the not-for-profit sector, all my life working in housing primarily, and housing, care, advocacy, support work. I think that this is the most exciting part of the world to be involved in. Every day people are transforming lives. Every day is different to use some of the old analogies, but you know, we can absolutely create a future that is much more positive, much more inclusive for people. And that's always my commitment. And actually the WAGs, the women achieving greatness. That's fantastic because we are a sector that's dominated by women. We have got some amazing women who are out there just doing the do each and every day, and hats off to them. I think they're incredible.

Speaker1: [00:08:48] Well, as someone personally who's been involved in the sector for over 20 years, it's been richer for it for your advocacy, if I may say so. Thank you very much for your time today, and I'll look forward to seeing you around the show over the next couple of days.

Speaker2: [00:09:01] Brilliant, thank you. 

Speaker1: [00:09:02] Thank you. Vic.

Speaker1: [00:09:11] Jane, welcome back to Voices of Care.

Speaker3: [00:09:13] Great to see you, Suhail.

Speaker1: [00:09:14] As always, lovely to see you. It's only been a few weeks. Seems only a few weeks ago, at the beginning of the summer, and I thought it's going to be a fairly gentle conversation. Not much happening. Completely the opposite. I guess we should start. Or maybe we should start with the Darzi Report. Now, obviously very focused on the NHS, but I think there's things that you've spoken about that are pertinent to homecare and social care generally.

Speaker3: [00:09:38] Yes. Last year, as you know, I was chair of the Care Provider Alliance, and in that role I was invited to be part of the expert reference group for the Darzi Review, which was good. So they tried to be inclusive and our views were sought, which we did contribute. And Lord Darzi knows as an NHS professional himself that you need social care to work. But his remit was quite tight. I think many people would say that there wasn't anything surprising in his review. He just very crisply analysed the situation, probably more starkly than has been done in the past, because more things have gone wrong with, you know, years of underinvestment. And I think the message that the NHS is broken but not beaten is fair. But I think the broken message is demotivating NHS teams. So, you know, the government has to balance hope and optimism with realism.

Speaker1: [00:10:47] Absolutely. And I think one of the other things you've been doing, which you've been very busy attending the party conferences, we're getting a little bit more detailed, dare I say, around the government's plans for social care. I know you're talking about this tomorrow here at the Care Show. I think you're going to share the lessons and wisdom you've picked up about the government plans. Can you give us a bit of a sneak preview? This is going to go out after the show, so you're not giving it away.

Speaker3: [00:11:09] I think it's fair to say that the Labour government doesn't have a well-formed plan for social care. I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing. It would be worse to have a plan that nobody agreed with. So having an opportunity to influence is potentially positive. But at the moment we haven't heard anything tangible about how we can go about doing that. I've personally had two meetings with others with the Minister for Care, Stephen Kinnock. The first was to tell us that they were cutting funding for training. 

Speaker1: [00:11:43] Yes, I remember it well. 

Speaker3: [00:11:45] But the second was an in-person round table. There were 14 leaders from different parts of the care sector, including people drawing on services. And he gave us an hour and a half, which was very good. So that meant that everybody had time to put their suggestions forward. He talked about the focus on employment rights, fair work, which is happening first in social care. We've had some further conversations since with the Department for Business and Trade because they are leading on the employment rights legislation. As we understand it, the primary legislation will be laid this week. Well, you know, introduced, I mean, because they'd set themselves a goal of 100 days. 100 days is the 12th of October, which is a Sunday or Saturday. So the word on the street is Thursday. 

Speaker1: [00:12:36] Interesting. 

Speaker3: [00:12:37] Lots of things are happening on Thursday. Skills for Care is releasing a workforce report as well. But as we understand it, the primary legislation is going to be fairly vague. And that secondary legislation will take a fair bit of time. It's complicated because it involves all business sectors. And I think the officials are finding it quite challenging to draft it. 

Speaker1: [00:13:03] To cover everything.

Speaker3: [00:13:07] So there was a lot of conversations about that.

Speaker1: [00:13:10] National Care Service, any further thoughts?

Speaker3: [00:13:11] So he talked about the National Care Service or how they want to create one and having some national standards. And he invited suggestions for what those standards could be. I make the point that we already have a lot of standards. The problem is that none of them are enforced. But if he did want to think of a new one, then introducing a national contract for care services would be a good idea. We've been advocating for years, as you know, for a minimum price for home care. 

Speaker1: [00:13:38] A fair price. 

Speaker3: [00:13:38] And if we had a minimum price agreed nationally for purchasing home care that no public body could go beneath, that would very much help the sustainability, but more importantly, the workforce. Because if we have zero commissioning, low fee rates, we end up with zero-hour employment at low wage rates. Direct connection. So if you want to fix the wages, you've got to fix the commissioning, and the local authorities are not necessarily doing things the way they are because they want to. They're doing it because they have to balance their books. And they've had, you know, underfunding for years. Many providers now actually feel sorry for local authority commissioners because they've got an impossible task.

Speaker1: [00:14:25] The county council network figures around 54 billion for the next five years. So I guess that standard, a national flaw if you like, below which you can't go. Was it heard with some sympathy or at least noted?

Speaker3: [00:14:40] Looked surprised and like it was something they hadn't thought about. I did float the idea at the Department for Business and Trade with the Director of Labour Market Enforcement, and their sort of attitude was, oh, well, no, the government couldn't possibly, you know, legislate for something like that. Well, why not? If you're determined to fix the labour market, you need to do that because it's not ethical to. The point I made to the minister was, if the council purchases home care for £15 an hour, they can't employ people on £15 an hour. You know, it's basic. Do the maths.

Speaker1: [00:15:16] It's not A-level maths. 

Speaker3: [00:15:17] No. So I feel there's quite a gap in understanding about very basic things.

Speaker1: [00:15:26] It's disappointing isn't it. 

Speaker3: [00:15:28] I mean at the Department of Business and Trade, I've had to explain how the costs of home care are built up because one of them said to me, like, why? What happens to all the money? You know if a citizen pays £25 an hour and the care worker gets £11.44? Where does the rest of it go? Is that all profit? Well, no. There's something called statutory employment on costs. You know, you've got to pay pensions and national insurance and holiday pay and sick pay and average travel time and mileage. And our sums show that that comes to an average of £19.90. Then you've got to contribute to the cost of the registered manager's salary and the other staff in the office and the IT and the telephony and renting the office in the first place.

Speaker1: [00:16:03] Rent and all the rest of it. 

Speaker3: [00:16:05] Regulatory fees to the Care Quality Commission. Corporation tax and PPE insurance.

Speaker1: [00:16:13] The fact that there isn't a plan might be a good thing because if we're not, we haven't got clarity about the basics. We've got to start from there.

Speaker3: [00:16:19] I think their concern is that there isn't enough money to do it, and they don't want to promise that they can do something that they can't. And also, I think they're politically afraid of going there because everybody who's tried in the past has come unstuck. 

Speaker1: [00:16:34] Or not try at all.

Speaker3: [00:16:35] Well, I mean, a lot of them have tried, actually. I know Tony Blair, you know, commissioned, he did a royal commission but then chose to ignore its recommendations. And then Theresa May tried.

Speaker1: [00:16:46] And got pilloried for it.

Speaker3: [00:16:47] Yes. And, who else? David Cameron. He put in a proposals for cap on care, but then, you know, care costs, and then sort of withdrew. Boris Johnson legislated for it, but delayed and delayed. I think Labour's first proposal, Andy Burnham tried to introduce a National Care Service back in 2010 or something, and that was sort of dubbed a death tax. But I do feel that society has got to the stage where so many people have got personal experience for a relative or a neighbour or you know, that it's becoming a very real live issue. And if you look at the House of Lords, many of them are sort of on the older end of the spectrum, and they are experiencing first-hand how challenging it is. So and I think economically there's a strong argument, as we discussed on the previous podcast, because many people are not able to work because they're supporting loved ones. And Carers Trust recently released a report about young carers and how many of them are missing school because they're supporting people. 

Speaker1: [00:17:55] Someone maybe can do an econometric analysis of saying, actually, if you stop people having to have these caring responsibilities. How much would they contribute? Well, let's see what the budget says. One very final question that I'm bound to ask, bearing in mind your report into the CQC. Now, we've had a new appointment, Sir Julian Hartley, who's been a guest on Voices of Care. Just a couple of minutes on what your views and hopes are around that because I think you were on record as saying that the way that the regulatory regime has operated in home care, it's a bit like a ship taking on water and buckets being used to empty it.

Speaker3: [00:18:31] CQC has managed to get itself into a muddle and it needs strong leadership to recover. They produced a so-called recovery plan last week, which isn't very detailed, hasn't got timelines or clear actions or responsibilities. Most people on commercial boards wouldn't get away with producing a report like that. So Sir Julian has got a lot of work, and I think that one of their biggest challenges is that they've lost a lot of good people. Some people actually have gone back to help out, I understand, so maybe with the right environment to work in, they will be able to get some people back. But I think that, you know, one of the things I pointed to in my report was the fact that for whatever reason, the home care market has ended up becoming very fragmented. Councils have taken either a hands-off approach or they've actively decided that small is beautiful, and it's a good idea to have a myriad of tiny providers. The problem with that is that there isn't enough resource available to monitor the quality of all of these providers. 

Speaker1: [00:19:39] 60% unrated or not being rated for a long time.

Speaker3: [00:19:42] And you know, that's bad for people drawing on services because no one is checking who is doing the right thing. Many councils haven't done proper contract quality monitoring for years, so we desperately need you know, regulators and regulators to work. And it's not just the Care Quality Commission. You know, the HMRC hasn't got enough resource to check on minimum wage compliance. And one of the things that Labour is going to do is introduce a fair work agency. I think that will go live in April '26. And they asked me in the Department of Business and Trade like what my views were about that. And I said, well, I actually think regulation is helpful if it's done in the right way. You need a level playing field. But what will be different about this regulatory body? Because the others, you know, the regulations are there, the standards are there. It's just that nobody's properly enforcing them. So if we have another regulator that isn't properly enforcing anything, how is that going to help? You know, so what's going to be different. And they weren't able to answer that question. 

Speaker1: [00:20:43] Sir Julian, if you're listening you've got a lot on your plate. And I'm sure Jane will be advocating as she has done so brilliantly for so many years. Thank you for your time, your candour as always. I look forward to seeing you later on around the show and coming to hear you speak.

Speaker3: [00:20:55] Brilliant. Thank you.

Speaker1: [00:20:57] Pleasure, thank you.

Speaker1: [00:21:06] Michelle, welcome back to Voices of Cave from a buzzing NEC.

Speaker4: [00:21:09] It really is, isn't it?

Speaker1: [00:21:10] It's amazing. I've been here since the morning and it's just busy.

Speaker4: [00:21:14] Yeah, and it's fantastic to see that so many people are clearly interested in care. And that's what we like. 

Speaker1: [00:21:19] And it's a transformative time for care. 28 years plus for Newcross. And you are chairing, you're leading a panel here on a really, really important subject close to your heart clinical excellence, compassion. Tell us a little bit about it. You can let us in because this is going to be filmed afterwards.

Speaker4: [00:21:37] Okay. I was going to say I'm giving you your nuggets here that no one's heard yet, so. Absolutely. So I was asked to present a piece and head a panel on clinical excellence which is a big topic.

Speaker1: [00:21:51] Huge topic. 

Speaker4: [00:21:52] It's a huge topic and it can be a little bit dry sometimes. So I looked at this, the whole sort of clinical excellence piece and thought, okay, so what does it really mean to me? And it came to me very quickly and very easily. Empathy. For me, empathy is the foundation of healthcare. And so the whole panel, the session is based on empathy in action. And it's also featuring some true stories with key individuals. So Claire Thomas, who is the registered manager for Ilford Park Care Home.

Speaker1: [00:22:27] Who Newcross has known for so long.

Speaker4: [00:22:28] 20, we've known each other for almost 28 years. So she was one of our first customers, which is brilliant and still is today. 

Speaker1: [00:22:34] Amazing. 

Speaker4: [00:22:35] So I'm really proud of that. We've also got Colin, who is the father of one of our service users, Thomas, that we take care of in the community. 

Speaker1: [00:22:44] So we're bringing to life what it actually means. All these words that we hear as a parent. 

Speaker4: [00:22:48] As a parent, and I think he's I think he's going to steal the show. I think he's going to be absolutely brilliant. And then we've got our lovely Claire Reader, who's our VP of Community Care for Newcross. So we've got some really powerful speakers there and we are really exploring together the whole impact of empathy, of how we treat our customers, our people. I hate the word service users, customers because it doesn't really depict what we do.

Speaker1: [00:23:15] It's the human connection, isn't it that we have to get back too?

Speaker4: [00:23:17] Absolutely. So it's the people in our care. And I think for me, if I could sum up the impact of empathy, it's really quite simple, I think, for a receiver of care I think if you are delivered care with empathy, it's a difference from having things done to you to being taken care of.

Speaker1: [00:23:38] And that goes to the essence. And you can speak to this as a clinician of personalised care because it has to be the person.

Speaker4: [00:23:46] Absolutely. It's the centre of everything. And, you know, I've seen in my years as a clinician and as a nurse leader, I've seen people treating caring for people with empathy, that's just wonderful to see. But sadly, I've seen it missing.

Speaker1: [00:24:04] Have we lost a bit of that?

Speaker4: [00:24:06] I think sometimes it can be lost when people, when carers, when nurses, when healthcare professionals are really under pressure. And sometimes care does become very task-oriented because things have to get done. And people believe sometimes that empathy takes time. And actually it doesn't. It's a touch. It's a smile. It's just the way that you converse with someone and that's part of delivering the treatment, etc.. So I think it can be, I think it can.

Speaker1: [00:24:39] It's also, I guess, a function of the values you have as an individual and as a organisation. And I'm sort of going back to that very distinctive role that you have, Chief Ethical Officer. So it's a golden thread that goes back to values.

Speaker4: [00:24:56] Most definitely. But this, you know, for me, my role as Chief Ethical Officer, it's been a role that I've now had for just under 12 months. But when we started Newcross 28 plus years ago, the empathy was the foundation of our values and our ethos. And I was very strong in making sure that this was maintained throughout these 28 years. And I think it's something that allows us to strive for excellence instead of just getting the job done. And it's something that I'm really proud of and we can always do better. And that's what we always strive to do. But I have a really wonderful position that I am front and centre of what we deliver as an organisation, both from an establishment point of view. So with our temporary staffing offer, but also with our community care as well. So I'm kind of in the centre. So I experience from all facets, all aspects. And I can influence with my passion for empathy, how we operate. And that brings me a lot of joy.

Speaker1: [00:26:06] No, absolutely. And it's quite important because the Care Show this year, its theme is a collaborative approach to social care. So I guess what you're saying and what the panel will be discussing, because you're talking to a provider, you're talking to someone who uses the service or the parent of that compassionate piece, that empathy piece actually should connect everybody, workforce or people who use the service and also the providers and indeed the regulators.

Speaker4: [00:26:34] Absolutely. It's something that, you know, as you say, we need to be connected. And I think it's also, I see here I've had a quick walk around and, you know, we in Newcross are really developing advanced technology to enable us to deliver our services in a more efficient, effective, in a better way. Again, the foundation of our technology is that within this evolution that we again, don't forget why we're here. We're here to deliver care. And that again encompasses empathy. And I look around here at the Care Show and there is a lot of technology here. I think every year it gets more.

Speaker1: [00:27:17] It's more, it's amazing.

Speaker4: [00:27:18] It is amazing. And again, it's making sure that when we are developing technology we don't forget the humans, the people. And what makes healthcare so very special again is that contact and that human understanding. It's what drives through a personalised, centred approach.

Speaker1: [00:27:39] And just going on a tangent slightly, because I know this was close to your heart as a clinician, as a nurse, driving that approach in terms of the training of the workforce that Newcross deploy, and that has now become a much larger mission with the creation of FuturU and supporting our nation needs 540,000 new people in this sector for the next 15 years. We cannot rely on international recruitment to fill that. But I know this was part of your vision for FuturU to be able to help give us the workforce and health workforce security for the country.

Speaker4: [00:28:18] Yeah, I absolutely. I think it's twofold really. So I do think it's irresponsible to depend upon overseas recruitment. And we've got to cultivate and grow our own if you keep the cultivation theme there. But I think it's something again, when we, we developed FuturU, going back to the person-centered approach to care, which is so important it's front and centre, is can empathy be taught because a lot of us, it's in our DNA. So can it be taught? Do I believe it can be taught? I believe that we can influence through education. I believe that we can influence through knowledge. Um, and that's why when we created FuturU we were very keen to make a difference with the way that we educate. So we have hundreds of courses and we developed a suite of courses that are very scenario-based. So again, people-centered is the heart of the courses. It's not the traditional way of learning. It's getting people to be in the moment.

Speaker1: [00:29:22] So immersed, experiential.

Speaker4: [00:29:23] Absolutely. And so I was super excited when we were given the opportunity with the government's objective to develop the skills of healthcare individuals from the very beginning. So on the entry into this wonderful sector and career. So we've developed the Adult Care Certificate Level Two, which is ready to be launched, but we've not developed the programme in the traditional way. It is very immersive. It's scenario-based and I think it brings home the reality of care and should I believe, evoke emotion, and evoke caring from the individuals that are undertaking the learning. So I'm super excited about this.

Speaker1: [00:30:09] And I think that emotion, that connection, just to finish off your panel is about that. I know your own story. I guess you're still carrying that banner from your heart and being and looking after your late grandfather. You must be very proud of the journey.

Speaker4: [00:30:24] Yeah, absolutely. But it's not over yet. There's a lot more to do.

Speaker1: [00:30:29] Absolutely. Well, look.

Speaker4: [00:30:29] As always.

Speaker1: [00:30:30] Thank you for finding the time to come and see us. Good luck at the panel and we'll catch up later.

Speaker4: [00:30:34] Thank you.

Speaker1: [00:30:35] Thank you.

Speaker4: [00:30:35] Thank you very much. 

Speaker1: [00:30:45] The social care workforce and its training has never been more important in the sector. I'm therefore delighted to welcome to Voices of Care here at the Care Show, Mark Story, head of Learning & Innovation at FuturU. Mark, welcome to Voices of Care.

Speaker5: [00:30:58] Thank you. Suhail. Hello.

Speaker1: [00:30:59] Hello. It's good to see you. Been a busy morning already for you.

Speaker5: [00:31:03] Very busy.

Speaker1: [00:31:03] Been past the stand a couple of times. Lots of people coming to see what FuturU are you doing? 

Speaker5: [00:31:07] It's been really positive, the feedback that we've been getting. And yeah, it's always invigorating hearing from the people that use our products and services.

Speaker1: [00:31:16] Now, for people who haven't yet met FuturU just very quickly, it's mission and vision. It's to transform the way people are trained in social care in that sector.

Speaker5: [00:31:25] So that's exactly it. We think that we can use technology to drive down the cost of training, improve the quality. Our mission is to provide universal access to free health and social care education.

Speaker1: [00:31:37] For individuals.

Speaker5: [00:31:38] For individuals, and offer a wealth of value to organisations as well. And we believe that our approach to learning is unique and much more effective than you might find elsewhere. 

Speaker1: [00:31:49] And that's a story-based approach, is it not? Because the evidence suggests that learners tend to have more longevity and stickability, for want of a better word? Is that right? 

Speaker5: [00:31:59] So with a name like Mark Story, I have to be delivering story-led learning. So we put the learner in a care situation. So rather than learn health and safety or duty of care in an abstract way, we want to put the learner into a care situation, which is what they will be doing, and bring all of that knowledge together. And we challenge them to navigate those situations. And then they learn by doing and progressing through those situations. 

Speaker1: [00:32:32] And I know you're very proud personally on behalf of the business that you and FuturU have been shortlisted for some very important awards for the work that you've done.

Speaker5: [00:32:43] So there's three of our projects that have been shortlisted for the Excellence in Learning Design Awards from the Learning Technologies. And yeah, we're massively proud of that. And it's a real endorsement of our approach.

Speaker1: [00:32:55] And just before I focus in on specifically on a couple of the things that you're looking at within social care, just taking a broad canvas. It's over 100 courses, 90,000 active learners. And these are all CPD-accredited courses.

Speaker5: [00:33:08] So all CPD-accredited courses. You're right, there's well over 190,000 learners that we have on the platform. And a number of our courses are these real breakout, immersive, story-led, character-driven learning pieces. So you'll get to meet some really lovely, challenging, but wonderful characters in our learning modules.

Speaker1: [00:33:34] Now let's focus on social care. The theme here at the Care Show is a collaborative approach to social care. Now you know, of course, Skills for Care, groundbreaking workforce strategy for the adult social care sector. Only three months ago. And that's really needed because I think the projections are we need 540,000. I'll say it again, 540,000 new workers in social care in the next 15 years. So that strategy and its recommendation around the Level Two Adult Social Care Certificate, I think is something that's really something that you're focusing on a lot in terms of the whole team.

Speaker5: [00:34:13] We hope that this is the start of a really clear, progressive career pathway, and the Level Two Adult Social Care Certificate is a great start from Skills for Care to professionalise what I think is a really underrepresented sector. And all of the Voices of Care podcasts, if there was a theme, it would be that the sector is underrepresented. It's underfunded, it's under-resourced. All of the above. And we think this is one step towards changing the tide there. So we have invested heavily in the way that we prepare our learners who are going to be going through the Level Two Adult Social Care Certificate to go through a really engaging, immersive learning journey that, again, is this kind of scenario-based, story-led learning which develops what my team is delightfully calling action intelligence.

Speaker1: [00:35:11] Action intelligence, I like that. 

Speaker5: [00:35:12] So carers develop a sense of what to do in a variety of situations and what they need to consider. And then we move them forward to an assessment. So we assess them in the workplace to make sure that they're actually really embedding and demonstrating that learning. So yeah, everything is great with the new care certificate. We just want to see more of it.

Speaker1: [00:35:33] Yeah. And just very briefly, because the care certificate will be known to many of our viewers, it's been around. There's been a care certificate that's been around for some time. But this is different. 

Speaker5: [00:35:43] This is different. It's a regulated qualification. The previous care certificate is not a regulated qualification. So it would be signed off by a manager. And while I'm sure that the majority of managers will be signing that off diligently, they're not trained assessors. So there will be subjectivity within that sign-off, which means that when you achieve the old care certificate...

Speaker1: [00:36:07] Variability.

Speaker5: [00:36:08] There will be a variability in there. And this new regulated qualification means that there is a single standard that all entry entrants to the care sector can achieve and demonstrate and be awarded a qualification for doing so.

Speaker1: [00:36:23] Now there was some uncertainty around the funding. I think that's a lot clearer. You're talking to, who's this for? Is it for the large or small, medium. And you're talking to a whole variety of providers, I think, across residential and home care. 

Speaker5: [00:36:35] Yeah. It's for all of the adult social care providers. What we'd like to see. And I'm sure that, again, in the Skills for Care strategy, looking at the career pathway, there needs to be a children's care certificate, a similar version for children. But at the moment, it's adult social care providers and it is big and small. So yeah, whoever you are, we welcome you to structure your onboarding in a really robust way by engaging with this new qualification.

Speaker1: [00:37:11] Just one final point. I know you've got to get back to talking to the public. The broader vision for FuturU is really encompassing social care learning in its broadest sense and providing that support as a partner.

Speaker5: [00:37:26] Yes. So we absolutely want to be at the forefront of learning in social care. And often people will equate online learning as being a cheap option. We think that we can do it in a way that increases the quality of it, the objectivity of it, and widens the access to it. So, yeah, our mission of providing universal access to free health and social care education for the learners is really based on that premise.

Speaker1: [00:37:59] And then one final element, because obviously the social care workforce strategy from Skills for Care talked about attraction and retention, etc. training on the retention piece. I think FuturU has also invested in providing a suite of wellness modules that supports flourishing workers with their mental health, because that's quite a big issue across all of health and social care.

Speaker5: [00:38 :22] Yes. So there is a range of resources that we've got that support people's inner wellness. And when we talk about inner wellness, this is really about making sure that they're able to quieten those negative voices in their minds, get more of the emotions that they need. And if these people are delivering care to others, they firstly need to be making sure that they're caring for themselves. So it's hugely important. And if people access the platform and access the wellness content, I think that will that will engage them in the learning process, and the link between learning, learning anything, and mental health I think is well established. But the content here is unique in what's out in the market in terms of the way it's structured, the messages that it gives and the activities that it encourages people to undertake.

Speaker1: [00:39:21] Skills for Care have been very open. They're welcoming new models of training and digitalisation. So I guess the timing is perfect for you and your colleagues and the team to keep pushing the boundaries.

Speaker5: [00:39:33] I really hope so. I really hope so. I think we can not replace the practical skill element that is required in care, but I think we can edge closer towards it and prepare people more for the real experience that they're going to have in their care careers.

Speaker1: [00:39:51] Well, it's a fantastic mission. Thanks for taking time out and joining us. And Mark Story. Thanks for painting that picture.

Speaker5: [00:39:57] Thank you.

Speaker1: [00:40:06] Can we talk a little bit about, I know the themes around, you can't cover it all of course, attract and train and transform. But in terms of some of the recommendations, some of the key ones that you have seen that have been really embraced by the sector.

Speaker6: [00:40:22] Yeah. So I think probably the most important recommendation is pay, care worker pay. If we could fix that, we'd fix a whole load of things. That really is in the hands of the government. I mean, there is no money in the sector to be able to do that. So we're very much in the hands of the government. But we know that the fair pay agreement is coming. So that's quite exciting. We're really keen to make sure that social care is at the top of the list there. So for me, I think some of the game-changing stuff really sits around what we've described as our small but mighty workforce, our regulated professionals, our social workers, our nurses, our OTs, and our registered managers. So we call them small but mighty because they make up a really small percentage of the workforce, the biggest percentage being our care staff. But those regulated professions and registered professions, We know where they are, we can reach them. And if we create the right environment, give them the right training and support, they make the biggest impact. They make the biggest difference. Leadership care, assessments, you know, all of those kind of things. So that for me are the biggest kind of game-changing areas. And then under transform, I think digitising social care, you know, there's so much going on there with the social care team in NHS England, the digitising social care team across DHSC, lots happening there, so much more that they want to do. So you know that's going to change the sector isn't it. It changes what we're able to do, changes how efficient we can be and how exciting we can be, and that we can be a career for younger people as well, you know, excite younger people as well, you.

Speaker1: [00:41:54] No, and I think you touched upon nursing as well. And that's still, for some, a bit counterintuitive when you think of nursing, you think acute setting. But I think, again, my numbers may be slightly up, 34,000. There's a big number of nurses that play a core role in the sector.

Speaker6: [00:42:09] Yeah. And we need more. We absolutely need more. And I think aside from nurses and social workers, we really undervalue our OTs, our occupational therapists. We don't talk about them very often. They are quite a small group of people. But actually they could make so much difference. And, you know, we talked to areas while we were developing the strategy to find out where the kind of really sweet spots were happening across the country. And Kirklees and Calderdale now have an OT-led front door to their social services. They've saved millions, but they've also stopped people having to have unnecessary care packages by just using technology and equipment. So game-changing, our professionals.

Speaker1: [00:42:48] Absolutely. And obviously the connection with the NHS can never be severed because the large number of people that need the care. Now, it's hard to believe, but the actual strategy came out three months ago. I know it's been a whirlwind since.

Speaker6: [00:43:02] I know.

Speaker1: [00:43:03] Now you guys haven't obviously, knowing Oonagh etc. You haven't sat on your hands.

Speaker6: [00:43:07] Oh, no.

Speaker1: [00:43:08] I think September was driving social care change campaign. Tell us a bit about that.

Speaker6: [00:43:12] Yeah. So we wanted. So at Skills for are, we tend to have a different focus campaign every month or every couple... 

Speaker1: [00:43:18] Data this month.

Speaker6: [00:43:19] Data. This month, technology. Yeah. And we wanted to have a really strong kind of, you know, push of the workforce strategy. So September felt like a really great opportunity two months on. And so we focused it around blogs, case studies, lots of being out there talking to people, lots of events, lots of kind of sharing recommendations and things like that from the strategy. We also kicked off in September a big kind of virtual event regional. So we had lots of regional breakouts. We worked with care providers, integrated care systems, local authorities, and we really kind of got them together in a room and said, what does the workforce strategy mean for us in the southwest or the northwest? And so it got some really powerful conversations out of that. And we're able to take some of that through that campaign.

Speaker1: [00:44:05] Fantastic. And obviously some of your recommendations are, as you say, pay is going to be fundamental. We know that and that is going to be dependent on the government. But there are other elements of the recommendation which you haven't waited for. I think that's the streamlining around some of the regulated qualifications. Can you tell us about that? Because that's quite a big change, even though it sounds quite technical. 

Speaker6: [00:44:26] It does, it does. Now that's a big shift. So that was the sort of reviewing and revising of the mandatory and statutory training. 

Speaker1: [00:44:34] Which is quite a lot sweeter.

Speaker6: [00:44:36] Yeah. And that was a massive list before of what we described as core and mandatory training. It's a big, long list of training that needed to be updated regularly. And there is no legal basis for that list. So what we've done is we've reviewed the legal basis for statutory and mandatory training. By its nature, if it's statutory or mandatory, you need to be doing it. Your staff need to be doing it. But then we've said and then the rest is open to you. As an employer, what do you need for your service? What do the people that you're providing care and support for really need you to have? And that might be anything from nail care, right? The way through to, you know, being able to kind of deal with money or dementia training, specialist epilepsy training, you know, you really then need to say, how do we tailor our training, but we don't want is for care providers to be bound by this kind of list of things that they think they've got to tick off, because CQC are coming. We want them to be more imaginative and innovative with their training and really kind of go out there and find good training providers who will say, okay, we can do all the basic stuff for you, but then we've got this really exciting using AI in your service or, you know, we've got these extra things and you'll have the money to kind of buy those courses there.

Speaker1: [00:45:50] So it's really to clarify the situation and focus people. And one of the areas I want to touch on as we close, there's a lot of press around this unprecedented letter from 30 social care leaders when there was all the uncertainty around funding. And this is a Level Two Adult Social Care Certificate much trailed. It's one of your key recommendations. And just how important is that? Because we have to attract record numbers of carers into our sector. 

Speaker6: [00:46:19] We do. And you cannot ask someone to do a job that is so complex that care is. I think people underestimate how complex a job it is. You can't ask them to go in day one with nothing. And so the care certificate benchmarks, that kind of this is the basic training that you need to have to be able to go in and safely provide that kind of entry-level care, and then you go from there. But the care certificate is absolutely the grounding that everybody needs, and it's so vital. And it's really great that we've got it as a qualification now. We just need people to start kind of buying into that and, you know, training providers, delivering it to a really high standard, awarding organisations offering IT and care providers understanding how to access it.

Speaker1: [00:47:03] And then one very final point. You talked about digital and the role of training providers is going to be fundamental. I know that Skills for Care are looking for what is best in class and reimagining training in digital. What are you seeing on the ground? What are your hopes? You can't even predict a year ahead nowadays with AI, but just be interesting to see with your 25 years of experience.

Speaker6: [00:47:25] Well, and I ran a training company for ten years. I had my own training company and, you know, things have to say, haven't moved on massively since then. That was nearly ten years ago. And so there's something about we want training providers to be bold. We want training providers to really get social care and to start thinking differently. Don't think about traditional same-old, same-old training. Really start to think about how do we engage with the sector? How do we offer them something different? How do we be bolder in our training? How do we get care staff excited about the job that they do, and not just keep repeat the same old training over and over again. Such a complex job and we really need to be opening digital training using data better. How to use AI? What are these bits of kit that we can practice with? How can we engage with people differently? Loads of new skills, really excites me and I think good training providers will be thinking about that now.

Speaker1: [00:48:20] It just brought to mind actually, one final point is I was privileged enough to interview Professor Deborah Sturdy, who of course, you know, and she actually painted the picture of the Level Two Certificate as an entry point. Going to your point about a career pathway for people today who are thinking about just starting, that could end up in the nursing profession.

Speaker6: [00:48:40] Absolutely.

Speaker1: [00:48:41] So you can see that, you can see that vision.

Speaker6: [00:48:44] Absolutely. And let's start to inspire our future nurses, our future leaders, our future registered managers, our future commissioners. Let's start to inspire them at care certificate level and get them thinking "this is a really great career and I've got so much opportunity". There will be lots of people that do the Care Certificate that think, "I don't ever want to be anything else but a care worker". And there's no pressure on those people. But there'll be lots of people that think, I really want an exciting career, and they might step out of social care if they're not shown that, we might lose them. So let's start exciting people at Care Certificate level.

Speaker1: [00:49:16] On that very positive and inspiring note, Jane Brightman, thank you for popping in and sharing your time and I look forward to hearing your talk tomorrow.

Speaker6: [00:49:23] Thank you. 

Speaker1: [00:49:24] Pleasure.

Speaker1: [00:49:25] Well, that brings us to the end of this very special episode of Voices of Care. I hope you've really enjoyed it. Some really insightful comments around what we expect from the government, how we can bring inclusion really to the centre of the workforce, and how the workforce strategy could transform this sector. Please join me for the next episode. And in the meantime, I'm Suhail Mirza. Thank you very much for joining us on Voices of Care.

Speaker7: [00:49:50] Voices of Care, the healthcare podcast.