00:00:00:00 - 00:00:02:17

Unknown

housing associations house about 6 million people

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Unknown

where are they going to go if we if we don't do that?

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Unknown

that's not our job, someone else will sort out these these challenges.

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Unknown

problem is that when families experience and can actually becomes a problem for a whole range of families,

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Unknown

who desperately need good quality, affordable homes

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Unknown

Their lives would have been considerably worse off,

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Unknown

we've cut this down to the bone

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Unknown

We build about 1200 new homes a year,

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Unknown

I fear that we're getting to that to the end of that, that resilience.

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Unknown

the long tail benefits would be enormous.

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Unknown

Hur som helst, helt klart ganska.

00:00:37:08 - 00:00:41:16

Unknown

Stephen, welcome to Voices of Care. Thank you very much for coming to see us today.

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Unknown

My pleasure. Looking forward to it. Well, you're the first representative of the, housing association, sector. And, I wanted to start off it there, if I may, because the podcast focus a lot on, of course, health and social care. And I think people's perceptions of housing associations tends to be affordable housing for people on lower incomes.

00:01:06:07 - 00:01:21:06

Unknown

I think it's a little bit more than that in terms of housing associations. Be interesting to get the the gametes, because I know they've been around a long time. We don't have to go back to our ancestor in 1235. But I just wanted to get your perspective on the variety of things that housing associations do. Okay.

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Unknown

No problem. No pressure to talk about housing, having the the weight of housing. And that's, you can handle it. But, I guess some of the, some of the numbers,

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Unknown

housing associations house about 6 million people

00:01:36:04 - 00:01:46:02

Unknown

across the country, about 10% of the population. Exactly. Yeah, 10% of the of the population, they're their history not talking about arms, houses or.

00:01:46:04 - 00:02:12:22

Unknown

Well, fascinating, though there is a whole other discussion that their roots are in Victorian. Yeah. Kind of 19th century, philanthropists like George Peabody, which will no doubt talk about a little bit and some other like Octavia Hill. Yeah, Guinness family, etc.. If I fast forward to today, kind of modern ones, I guess I'd probably want to say before that the big movements were that kind of philanthropic.

00:02:13:01 - 00:02:37:19

Unknown

Yeah. 19th, mid 19th. Yeah. And then it was the kind of 1960s Cathy Come Home tackling homelessness. That was a Ken Loach documentary that became very famous over here. Yeah, lots of, church leaders, reverends, ministers, etc. started setting up really small housing estates back in the day when you could just buy ten houses on a street. Yeah, that because the rents for what we now call social housing.

00:02:37:23 - 00:02:59:06

Unknown

Yeah. Any that much different from normal rent. Right. Yeah. So you could do that. So that was kind of the but the, the driver was not so much the rents as you say Steven. That's interesting. It's the church people and the volunteers wanting to clear the slums and the terrible conditions in which people lived. Exactly. So yeah, its roots have always been kind of social.

00:02:59:09 - 00:03:22:07

Unknown

Yeah. And charitable in that sense, and trying to raise the quality of housing standards more, more generally. And probably the third wave was the kind of transfers from local authorities. So local authorities had difficulty investing in their housing. And because it's social housing not dissimilar from housing associations in the 80s and 90s. And so one way to get more investment was to transfer those to these kind of housing.

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Unknown

And that was a there was an act in 1974 that allowed public funding for social housing in 1988, I think, allowed that big transfer. I think we ended up with 400,000 social houses being built. And you were talking about that big expansion. That's the provision of social, affordable homes. But the housing association provision is much broader than that, isn't it?

00:03:45:00 - 00:04:08:19

Unknown

Yeah, indeed. If you if you fast forward to now, a typical housing association will still have those social housing. So they'll be kind of submarket rents. Yeah. Yeah. In London I think the average social rent is probably about £140 a week. Right. Do the math. And we eyewatering difference. Yet they also do shared ownership. So if you've ever seen any of that kind of part by part rents.

00:04:08:21 - 00:04:09:13

Unknown

Yeah.

00:04:09:13 - 00:04:32:18

Unknown

Housing associations tend to be the main proponents of that. Yeah. They develop homes. So this is building on their own or in partnership and partnership and the in their own rights as developers. And the bigger ones obviously are much bigger programs. Yeah, they build development, which means that they also have that managing leasehold properties. And we provide a whole range of services.

00:04:32:18 - 00:04:56:10

Unknown

So it's more than just putting a roof over other people's heads. It's about some of the care and support services, which is kind of my specialist. Yeah. Which we're going to come on to, you know, employment opportunities for communities, access to community buildings, support for people in times of crisis, advice and wellbeing support, you know, a whole range of play activities for kids trips for older people.

00:04:56:15 - 00:05:18:17

Unknown

So it real kind of anchors and communities really, and to to some extent doing what local authorities used to do. Who are they. Could afford to afford to do it. Absolutely. I think the National Housing Federation, which is the voice, I think, of the of the sector, talks about something like just on the rental, subsidies that you talked about.

00:05:18:20 - 00:05:54:16

Unknown

I think it saves tenants. Otherwise they would have paid £9 billion worth of additional rent. But it's interesting you talk about the community provision, and the support for people on the wider determinants of health, including loneliness. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I, I think that one of the challenges is if you're housing people, particularly in a Peabody context or a big housing association context, where you got estates and when your housing 600, 809 hundred people in the same place, it doesn't suffice to just put a roof over there, because the

00:05:54:16 - 00:05:59:20

Unknown

problem is that when families experience and can actually becomes a problem for a whole range of families,

00:05:59:20 - 00:06:01:22

Unknown

so you you can't stand back

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Unknown

and say,

00:06:02:05 - 00:06:06:01

Unknown

that's not our job, someone else will sort out these these challenges.

00:06:06:01 - 00:06:25:01

Unknown

Yeah. It isn't our job to to sort out the challenge, but it is our job to support people to find the help that they need. Absolutely. And the health service or voluntary sector specialist or whatever it happens to, to be great. You go and you get you can do that through kind of mission creep.

00:06:25:03 - 00:06:46:07

Unknown

Yeah. It's not your intention, but you find yourself having to do that in a kind of, strategic way. Or you can just grasp the nettle and understand that you have these responsibilities conferred on you and try to do it in a more organised way. Absolutely. And I wanted to you you've talked about, obviously, Peabody. So let's, let's focus on, Peabody itself.

00:06:46:07 - 00:07:10:15

Unknown

Now, I hate to remind you, I think it's 27 years since, you joined a very different organisation. Back then, you've been a director for nearly 20 years. This is since 2006. Give us an idea around Peabody. It's got a very venerated history. Philanthropist, 1862, I think, £500,000 settlement. You you seem to know an awful lot about it.

00:07:10:16 - 00:07:33:09

Unknown

And you also managed to slip it in. And I'm a Peabody lifer. It's a brilliant 27 years, a long time. And so it's, Yeah. Peabody is one of those philanthropic organisations set up by George Peabody. He was an American banker, who made a lot of his wealth in, in London, working in and banking, as he got to the latter part of his life, he invested in lots of things.

00:07:33:09 - 00:07:55:10

Unknown

He gave his money, most of his money away. I like to tell people that that Bill gates is the George. Absolutely. I just going to say you. Absolutely. One of the things he did in London was he did through kind of three separate chunks of money, give 500,000 to what he said then was to ameliorate the conditions of the poor and the in this great metropolis.

00:07:55:12 - 00:08:19:05

Unknown

Amazing. Yep. And that was that was the core of, Peabody. If you fast forward that to to now, through a series of developing our own homes, through mergers and acquisitions of other properties and consolidation that's happened in the sector, we now have about 108 to 110,000 homes because we were developing. The number goes up. Yeah, of course.

00:08:19:07 - 00:08:36:08

Unknown

And so 108,000 homes, we've got a care and support business which I run. We've got two property companies that do kind of property maintenance, because we invest about 40% of all the rents directly into to the repairs and maintenance of those homes.

00:08:36:08 - 00:08:39:14

Unknown

We build about 1200 new homes a year,

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Unknown

and we provide a range of services.

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Unknown

We invest about £8 million in our community foundation, which provides a whole range of kind of non housing support for us. And and you've got something like 600,000 residents. You're supporting something. I've lost 20,000 residents. I think that if

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Unknown

you get on a tube anywhere, you're, you're most likely to find a Peabody resident in virtually every carriage.

00:09:04:23 - 00:09:25:18

Unknown

Well, I came in via Thames me this morning driving. So I think that's one of your very largest. It definitely had lots of Peabody right through, through a merger that we did back in 2013 when we took over at a huge development trust, a housing association that had property companies, tenders made in southeast London. We own about a third of it.

00:09:25:20 - 00:09:48:10

Unknown

We, you know, about, five lakes, seven kilometres of canals, you know, 30,000 trees and, you know, several hectares of open space. And about 6000 properties there. And we got a big redevelopment programme of rebuilding some of the older homes as well as building new homes. Yeah. And we'll come back to that. But it's exciting potentially.

00:09:48:10 - 00:10:09:19

Unknown

It provided the DLR line, can get into the right place. Certainly working with the government, transit open up transport access. There's been, Elizabeth line. Yeah. At one point, big fan of the Elizabeth line has transformed it. Incredible. But we need the Docklands at the top end so that we can kind of open that up for up to 20,000, more homes.

00:10:09:23 - 00:10:35:18

Unknown

Amazing. Again, we've got a big community program there as well. We've got, football stadium, if you can believe it. Oh, haven't seen the is the house tends to be town football. Wow. We've got a big youth centre there. We've got a number of facilities that we, we rent out, at low markets for, for local community groups as well as some of our kind of supportive housing schemes, which I'm sure we'll talk about up to just now.

00:10:35:20 - 00:10:56:18

Unknown

We'll get there. I wanted to just tarry there because that's a really good example. Thames Mead, in terms of, social regeneration contributing to communities and to economic development. And I if I may, before we get into the your section of the business, which is really powerful and directly relevant to to health kids, it's interesting we're now in the of the government has a very clear mission.

00:10:56:18 - 00:11:19:22

Unknown

It said for the for its, economic growth, but also for new building. And there is a housing crisis. And, analysts and commentators have said that housing associations, in a sense, are almost uniquely placed to make a contribution to that. And the National Housing Federation says you could build 90,000 homes and 140,000 new jobs, £51 billion of economic value.

00:11:19:22 - 00:11:30:14

Unknown

And, are you excited about that? Because the potential for the housing associations to help the government in its bigger plan of 1.5 million homes? I'm I'm

00:11:30:14 - 00:11:38:21

Unknown

cautiously excited, if one can be that Steve and I do know that that's not a contradiction in terms. But on the other hand,

00:11:38:21 - 00:11:42:17

Unknown

housing associations are the biggest providers of social housing

00:11:42:17 - 00:11:43:20

Unknown

and in the country.

00:11:43:20 - 00:11:44:11

Unknown

So

00:11:44:11 - 00:11:48:04

Unknown

if you want to build more homes, you need us to be part of that equation.

00:11:48:04 - 00:12:08:22

Unknown

And we need to to want to be part of that equation. As well. But by the same token, we're under huge amounts of pressure to invest in our existing homes to deal with lots of the new regulation to kind of absorb all of the inflation, and housing as of late.

00:12:08:24 - 00:12:21:20

Unknown

And to, you know, just prioritise the kind of existing residents and their needs over kind of future residents. And we're having to kind of deal with that conundrum of dealing with it. We know that there are thousands of people in temporary accommodation now

00:12:21:20 - 00:12:24:24

Unknown

who desperately need good quality, affordable homes

00:12:24:24 - 00:12:29:05

Unknown

that by the same token, we've got an ageing stock we need to invest in.

00:12:29:09 - 00:12:52:00

Unknown

The existing residents have good quality homes too. Now that's interesting because I think the numbers, show there's a according to the National Housing Federation, something like 4.2 million additional people could benefit from affordable housing, 160,000 children living in temporary accommodation. You referred to that. Is it a question of because the atmosphere has changed? The macroeconomic environment is very different.

00:12:52:02 - 00:13:15:24

Unknown

You talked earlier about that phase of housing associations in the 70s, which exploded, the stock, because you were able to, have public funding to create social housing. Now, I think it 2010, if I'm right, that funding was reduced significantly. So that's putting that is that's what's putting the added pressure of your ability to, to, to build houses.

00:13:16:01 - 00:13:19:20

Unknown

I don't remind me. That's a painful.

00:13:19:22 - 00:13:42:20

Unknown

I had a brief stint of, four years is running on development. Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realise that. And I started in 2009. Oh, no. Oh, no, oh, no. About about a year later. So so so yes. The level I guess the wider context. If you build a property, it costs you the same to build that property.

00:13:42:20 - 00:13:59:19

Unknown

Whether, whether our building it for you to come and buy it for 500,000. Yeah. For me to rent it for £150 a week. Yeah. House will be no cheaper or more expensive depending on the person that uses it. So the only way you can make it work if you want to do it at a submarket level, is that it requires some subsidies.

00:13:59:22 - 00:14:22:08

Unknown

Yes. Come in from someplace else to make the numbers. So that's what we mean when we talk about Grant and the government's, you know, housing program. It's providing that subsidy for those low cost homes. And so what happened in 2010 is that the levels of Grant went from something like 50% of the cost of building the unit to more like 10 to 20%.

00:14:22:08 - 00:14:40:07

Unknown

So a massive reduction, massive reduction. So the housing association subsequently had to do to, to address, was they had to leverage the asset base that they already had. So the, you know, bar to get. Yep, yep. In order to put more into the equation because we wanted to build these desperately needed homes. But obviously

00:14:40:07 - 00:14:44:21

Unknown

there's a limit to your capacity to be able to borrow to build these homes.

00:14:45:02 - 00:15:05:12

Unknown

Alongside that, we've had some cuts to our ability to raise our income, to raise our rent. Because that's capped, isn't it? Exactly. You know, formula that determines that the rents and for a four year period, the government, created a formula that reduced the level we had to reduce by 1% every year. The, the, the level of rents.

00:15:05:12 - 00:15:38:19

Unknown

And if you, if you look at that over four years and then prorate it out for 20 or 30 years, you end up with a huge gap and you're absolutely anticipated you need. But actually repair bills do not go down a nice, interesting drop anywhere. No. With this wedge of unfunded activity, which is cut. And now we're in that place when people are having, you know, all these pressures you we've talked about about, you know, all these people in temporary accommodation, the government's desire to build one and a half, build 1.5 million homes over a five year period.

00:15:38:21 - 00:15:58:15

Unknown

You know, how do we how do we square that circle? Because I think it's interesting you mentioned that if they put the cap in on the rent, they've reduced the the subsidy, if you want to call it that. And I think the National Housing Federation number is staggering number, I think that all members of the federation, I think spending some like £88 billion on maintenance.

00:15:58:17 - 00:16:13:12

Unknown

So they've called for some measures from the, the government. What would you like to see presumably that to pay it back and a more favourable rental cap. Yeah. I mean, I, I think we all have to be realistic that

00:16:13:12 - 00:16:15:03

Unknown

there is no magic wand,

00:16:15:03 - 00:16:21:12

Unknown

you know, it does not have the magic money tree to go back to, to previous prime ministers.

00:16:21:14 - 00:16:41:03

Unknown

Yes, that's I think we all have to be pragmatic and yeah, positive about what we actually can do can be a sensible way to, to go forward. So you it's I would I would hesitate for saying just give us more money and everything will be fine. I think there are some things that can be done to, to deal with parts of the problem.

00:16:41:03 - 00:17:02:09

Unknown

One is certainty about what the rent levels are going to. Yeah, because we're we're developing for the long term, but managing the sentence for the long term. So we have to have some certainty that we can afford them. You know. And really so if we could have, you know, a ten year rent settlement, say yes short of timelines, that would give us a bit of stability and, and build a business plan accordingly.

00:17:02:10 - 00:17:26:19

Unknown

Exactly. And similarly, if we had some support for some of the new regulations, for example, around cladding of tall buildings post spread, of course, the awful fire and I think that's 2017, 2017. Yes. And which is costing us millions of pounds to, to rectify with little or no support for that. So that's just coming out of the kind of core business.

00:17:26:21 - 00:17:57:04

Unknown

And similarly there are other regulations that are pushing up cost as well. So if we could just get some support in those kind of key areas, it helps us essentially recapitalise the business hours and the wider sector so we can help with some of those challenging numbers. Well, it's a big mission for the government. So hopefully, anyone listening, they might be able to see that there's a strong advocacy for the role of housing associations moving away from the broader, property and development side, which is really important, I think, on a social perspective.

00:17:57:06 - 00:18:20:18

Unknown

I wanted to zero in on your, area of expertise and leadership at Peabody, which is in the care and support division. And it's probably still not well known, how broad the support that housing associations bring. But perhaps you can put some context at Peabody. I think something at 1100 staff, you're in, in charge of and quite a large 70, £78 million of turnover.

00:18:20:18 - 00:18:44:03

Unknown

It's a lot of people devoted to that care and support function. Yes. There, as Peabody has always, I've always been kind of committed to, you know, working in communities and housing people who need housing. And I, if you think about it in a holistic way, you will necessarily house people that need more support than others. You know, some will need any support other than a house that they can afford.

00:18:44:03 - 00:19:12:21

Unknown

Yeah, others may need a house with some support. And that support can kind of vary. And so we've stepped into that space. So now we've got about 7000 of those hundred and 8000 homes with specialist properties. Right. And that's a range of specialisms for, you know, homeless people, people with learning disabilities, people with mental health problems, older people who want to live in a supported, housing environment.

00:19:12:23 - 00:19:41:15

Unknown

People fleeing domestic violence. Okay. There's such a range of, range of different, different schemes. We do some hospitals, step down services. Right. As well. So hospital discharge and, and the like, we do some kind of traditional care, you know, that's not the biggest bit, but as you will know, it's actually quite staff and to.

00:19:41:17 - 00:19:55:08

Unknown

The size of the business. We have about 1100, people. And that's operating with a high number of vacancies because of some of the recruitment.

00:19:55:10 - 00:20:17:22

Unknown

Right. Operating in London and the South east, particularly big levels of provision in Essex and Hertfordshire and a number of the London boroughs. And in terms of the people that you contract with. So this is right across the public sector that would be local authorities, NHS and is it's overwhelmingly local authorities. Authorities are the primary commissioners.

00:20:17:24 - 00:20:43:21

Unknown

There are some, more complex relationships with the NHS and the local authority are both kind of co-funding some stuff, but then there's some others where it's more directly between ourselves and the NHS. And if you've been around as long as people, you'll also have a whole range of ridiculously complicated around the NHS. Gifted us some land and, you know, 1970 something to do something and it can only be used for that purpose, right?

00:20:43:23 - 00:21:03:03

Unknown

They still get the benefit out of it in perpetuity, essentially. And in terms of that, you've touched upon it briefly, but if you expand a little bit, you're covering support for people with mental health and learning disabilities. And when it comes to supported and sheltered housing, I mean, housing associations are the largest provider on me. Yeah. Oh most definitely.

00:21:03:03 - 00:21:27:01

Unknown

Yeah. You know, we we're undoubtedly the largest provider of that housing. Anybody provides about 2000, properties for permanent residents. And the specialist provision older people live in many different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. But these that have more, more intensive housing management, we've got about 2000 of those units. But I think that we do lots of really good things.

00:21:27:01 - 00:21:46:15

Unknown

And that's absolutely fantastic. I think the the things that I'm probably the most proud of is, is firstly the workforce. Yeah. You know, if people come to work in care and support because they care, yes, about other people, not just because they want to get paid because. Right. But there are no other things they could do. Yeah. Similar salaries.

00:21:46:15 - 00:21:46:21

Unknown

So

00:21:46:21 - 00:21:49:16

Unknown

it really is a vocation. It's not a job.

00:21:49:16 - 00:22:05:03

Unknown

So we've got some fantastic people who kind of show up. We've got some incredible residents who just want to live their lives as well as they can, and some of them only need a little bit of support to, to be able to, to do that. And we've got some really good satisfaction levels.

00:22:05:03 - 00:22:39:22

Unknown

You know, our resident satisfaction and carers support, you know, ranges from the lows in the mid 80s to the highs of the of the low 90s. And I'm always trying to push that into the 90s and away from the mid 80s. But actually those are pretty good. They're good numbers. And I think for mental health it's over over 80% of those, which has been you know, I think your recent survey, to focus on that a little bit because what's interesting them and the workforce you alluded to earlier, so if we I'm taking social care as a broad umbrella term, I know you provide a myriad of services, but certainly in social care, skills

00:22:39:22 - 00:23:05:07

Unknown

for care, etcetera, has provided stats of significant vacancies and difficulties in terms of recruitment. How have you sought to combat that? That's tough, because you're presumably under the same funding pressures when you're working with local authorities. Who commissioned the support. Yeah. Oh, it's been it's been a very it's been a difficult 15 years that the sector is so incredibly resilient.

00:23:05:09 - 00:23:08:14

Unknown

I think it gets taken for granted. Right. Actually,

00:23:08:14 - 00:23:12:11

Unknown

I fear that we're getting to that to the end of that, that resilience.

00:23:12:11 - 00:23:29:00

Unknown

I think I think, I think I read somewhere that, the charity sector more broadly than, than just, social care as a, as essentially funded kind of government funding gaps to the tune of almost £4 billion.

00:23:29:02 - 00:23:48:15

Unknown

And they pretty much exhausted their reserves and their ability to, to do that. And we're, we're kind of victims to some extent of that as well. We, along with 170 organisations and the National Housing Federation recently submitted a letter to the Prime Minister and the and the Chancellor essentially saying,

00:23:48:15 - 00:23:51:06

Unknown

you know, these services are at crisis point.

00:23:51:11 - 00:24:21:23

Unknown

You're already losing services and the homes that go with it. We're not building any to replace it. And, you know, 1 in 3 of all care providers and social care providers more broadly are talking about reducing services or exiting the sector, you know, entirely. And we've asked that the sector get at least £1.6 billion to try to reverse, you know, what has been essentially 15 years of cuts or standing still while inflation has been going up and needs has been going up as well.

00:24:21:23 - 00:24:44:19

Unknown

So it's quite difficult. And for Peabody alone, this year is the the no one in particular. Thank you for this. But this is a this is the first year that we've had a deficit budget for our contracted side of the business. You know, typically we're looking for margins of 2%. Well, of course, I mean, that's the nature if you can of course, that, you know, it's exceptional.

00:24:44:23 - 00:25:15:12

Unknown

Exceptional. Yeah. You know and you, you can then start to invest in the technology and drive service improvements. But we, we work to a 2% margin over the length of the contract. Yeah. We're going to lose 2% this year. We're working to claw it back. And so we've got a viable business going forward that's clearly unsustainable. But you know, the increases in National Insurance, along with the pressure on the kind of commission and its ability to to give uplifts in those contracts, is really put us in a difficult situation that we can't sustain.

00:25:15:14 - 00:25:50:23

Unknown

And it's interesting, that you made that advocacy in the extent that, you know, the, the part of the business that you run. I'm reminded, back in 2017, the Grenfell, we all, of course, remember that very, very well. And in the light of Grenfell, Sajid Javid then communities, minister I think commissioned a green paper and when he was into this whole, situation and I remember him saying that we must return to a time where housing associations and I think he used the word were treasured.

00:25:51:00 - 00:26:13:24

Unknown

And, I found that interesting as eight years ago, we were different place, different government. Seemed to be a long way from the housing associations being treasured. From what you're saying. Yeah, I think that's. I think that's true. And I think it's true and lots of regards. I think in the local authorities here, they can't give you what they don't have.

00:26:14:00 - 00:26:39:24

Unknown

Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm usually sympathetic to kind of where they, where they are. And I think we, and they try to make the best out of the resources that are, that are available and said, I know central government has had its own challenges as well. But we we as the front facing end of that business, you know, get all the flack from residents about all the things that we can't do, which makes it quite difficult.

00:26:39:24 - 00:26:57:05

Unknown

So I, I spend a lot of my time actually going out to schemes, going out on housing estates, meeting with residents, looking at their properties so that I can see some of the positive as well, because if you just sit in your office, sit in your ivory tower, all you get is the negativity, things that haven't worked and you getting a sense of what works really, really well.

00:26:57:09 - 00:27:17:20

Unknown

Fantastic work that people are doing on the ground and the residents are actually pretty content. And that's that's the dissonance between the on being on the ground and, and these negative going to come back to that because I think it's a good, space to really set out what you want from the government a little bit more, because I think at the moment the timing is important for social care.

00:27:17:24 - 00:27:42:08

Unknown

We've got lots of change. We've got NHS ten year plan, we've obviously got social care, Casey Commission, we've got government initiatives around immigration, all of which will impact, the workforce challenges. But going to the positives, maybe one of the cases that I found fascinating, looking at the work of people in the housing associations, is that to flip the argument from this is what the cost of this is to look at the contribution and maybe you can bring that to life.

00:27:42:08 - 00:28:02:04

Unknown

So, for example, I think you've done some the stats are 1 in 7 this earlier this year, 1 in 7 people in a hospital bed, are really waiting to be discharged to a social care setting. However widely do we define that I think bring to life a little because I think people has done some really interesting work value for money, work in the hospital discharge space.

00:28:02:06 - 00:28:26:03

Unknown

Yeah, I think there's two, two things around that. One is on that kind of specific acute issue. Of kind of bed blocking. Yes. The kind of vernacular that's kind of in the public space. We have moved into some of the hospital discharge services, particularly in some areas of London where it's quite acute. And there's some scope for us, increasing that as well.

00:28:26:03 - 00:28:47:24

Unknown

I mean, one of the pinch points and doing that is that there's not a lot of new development. So people are not building new homes. We didn't use for these schemes. So we're having to convert existing buildings, existing properties, which means it can be timely and yeah, just to get it off the ground. And so you need a pretty long runway to create the kind of capacity that the NHS needs.

00:28:48:01 - 00:29:05:02

Unknown

But the benefits, the financial benefits as well as the social benefits, as you've kind of pointed out, is as you alluded to, and so there is a need to do more of that on the acute side. Yeah, that's that's very much on the acute side. And one of the kind of pressures that I think the government is trying to deal with.

00:29:05:04 - 00:29:29:08

Unknown

But more broadly, if you just look at what social care providers do, you know, when we're at our best, we're stopping people from needing homes, GP appointments and emergency room treatments and spending longer in hospital because they've got a home, they've got the support that they need when they actually need it. And those costs are probably several times the kind of hospital discharge costs, really.

00:29:29:10 - 00:29:51:07

Unknown

And that's probably where the real long term value sits. I think. Now that's interesting. And, it's been tricky to see that advocacy is reaching the right ears. You talk about learning disability. That's a very big area, a large public purse commitment around the some of the work in Essex you've talked about, you've been doing that. You're particularly proud of supporting people with learning disabilities.

00:29:51:09 - 00:30:14:21

Unknown

Yeah. No. We've got a very long history and doing that. It comes from some of the legacy organisations that we that we merged with. And it's it's kind of moved over time. I mean, it's that when it started its life, probably back in the 80s, 90s, it was mainly, nurses leading to the NHS. The quality of care and support was just absolutely incredible.

00:30:14:23 - 00:30:43:05

Unknown

And they really understood the, the client groups, the customers, and as we now call it, the beneficiaries, what what have you. They really understood the needs. And it's, it's an area that we sometimes talk about, you know, the business of care and support and all of that. So, but actually, I'm, I'm always conscious that overwhelmingly, most of the residents and the people that we work with in the learning disability space are like, we like family to them.

00:30:43:07 - 00:31:08:10

Unknown

You know, they've lived in these places for a good chunk of their lives, and they're probably going to live there for their entire for the remainder of their lives. And so the, you know, the 4 or 5, ten, 12 people that work in the schemes alongside them and help them get up in the morning, let them eat and brush their hair and get dressed and go out to the shops or do whatever it is that they, that they can and want to do are you are like family.

00:31:08:12 - 00:31:22:05

Unknown

Yeah. The bonds are so tight. So it's it's almost difficult. It's almost embarrassing going to commissioners and saying we're not getting funding. Yeah. We're not getting enough money to deliver this stuff because we're so committed to doing the delivery because

00:31:22:05 - 00:31:24:21

Unknown

where are they going to go if we if we don't do that?

00:31:24:21 - 00:31:31:00

Unknown

And as you know, you know, the learning disabilities can, you know, crosses over to quite, quite complex.

00:31:31:00 - 00:31:57:04

Unknown

Yes. Very, very easily. So learning disabilities is a catch all. Of course. Yeah. Of of vulnerabilities that that people have with the flip side of that being that they also have, you know, people live can live great lives and a whole range of situations. And that's what we're trying to do know. But I but I tend to tell my, my staff, especially me incoming ones, is that our very first priority in care in sport is to keep people safe?

00:31:57:09 - 00:32:12:13

Unknown

Yep. You know, they need to be safe and they need to be secure. And that's got to be our priority. We have to you know, move heaven and earth to make sure that that happens. But once we've got that stable base, it's to help them get the best life that they can possibly get and whatever that means for them.

00:32:12:15 - 00:32:30:09

Unknown

And that comes through in learning disabilities. A in a way that you it doesn't all the services. But when you've got young people kind of coming through and you're trying to help them, that they, they really want you access to Wi-Fi and they want you to stop having all of these rules at once. They get the friends in.

00:32:30:11 - 00:32:37:21

Unknown

Yeah, it's a little bit different. It's important, but it's very different from supporting people that you know, that has you not supported them.

00:32:37:21 - 00:32:39:23

Unknown

Their lives would have been considerably worse off,

00:32:39:23 - 00:32:51:04

Unknown

and it absolutely was. And you get that gratitude from their families particularly, it's you. I still need a salary, but that's almost reward, right? So, you know, it's hugely rewarding.

00:32:51:04 - 00:33:12:09

Unknown

I can see that in the passion after 27 years, that conveys that at one. Well, you wanted to finish off with, effectively a platform because, for you to, to wrap this and bring this together, we are at a, an inflection point, a seismic moment, and whatever these platitudes are with big changes in the provision for health and social care, afoot.

00:33:12:11 - 00:33:32:23

Unknown

The National Housing Federation has really called on the government for a new national affordable housing program. What does that look like? What will it mean, to our society if actually they did listen to some of the demands that you put forward? Well, for them, I guess the the upfront costs would be expensive. But the,

00:33:32:23 - 00:33:36:11

Unknown

the long tail benefits would be enormous.

00:33:37:06 - 00:34:06:19

Unknown

Both enormous financially for the, for the Treasury but also enormous for society, for communities, for getting people out of temporary accommodation, for giving people a lifetime of accommodation, for helping the economy by having the people who can do the jobs nearer to the jobs, as well. So it's huge amounts of benefit. And I think we've already demonstrated, you know, the value of, you know, for every billion you put in, what you kind of get out of that in terms of, in terms of results, so that that almost goes without saying really.

00:34:06:21 - 00:34:32:09

Unknown

One thing I would say, and I know about this case is you refer to is doing the kind of social care, refused about, five years ago, I think I wrote, a kind of an internal discussion document and Peabody about the ills of social care and how we can kind of fix them all. If you look at my LinkedIn account, probably find it in one of my, one of my posts.

00:34:32:09 - 00:34:53:14

Unknown

It's quite short. It's I kind of write in thinking bullet points, two pages, talks about all the things that kind of need to happen, and, rehearse as, as here. But most of them cost money. Yeah, yeah, most of them cost money. And it's not, you know, that we that we are always arguing for money. We're basically saying

00:34:53:14 - 00:34:55:16

Unknown

we've cut this down to the bone

00:34:55:16 - 00:35:00:18

Unknown

and now we if we want to do more, we've got to put more money into it.

00:35:00:18 - 00:35:19:16

Unknown

So it's all about resource. And it's not for me to tell the government to send a billionaire or billionaire, you know, they need to look at the totality of all the things that need to be done and realise that they've got a really precious resource, particularly with large housing associations or big support providers. Because we can because we've got broader shoulders.

00:35:19:16 - 00:35:41:05

Unknown

So when our margins get tight, we can still provide quality support. If you're small, with three months of money in the bank. Yeah. And the commissioner doesn't give you an uplift. Well, what can you do? You've got nowhere to go. You can't subsidise that. You can't cash flow at all. You've got to cut the services. So if we're not careful we're going to sleepwalk into services that aren't really fit for purpose.

00:35:41:05 - 00:36:09:05

Unknown

And that's just not a good place to be. Right. And one final question. As we head to the next three years and your 30th anniversary, with CBD, what's the things that's making you particularly excited? You've talked about terms made, but, other things that you're involved in that you're really relishing at the moment? I think I think what I'm probably most excited about for the business in general, I think I'm most excited about the real focus on residents.

00:36:09:05 - 00:36:29:13

Unknown

After all these years. Residents are still at the heart of what we what we're doing and what we're trying to do. We've got a number of improvement programs, to try to improve our maintenance service, to try to be more responsive. There's a real challenge in getting bigger, getting bigger, but still being kind of local and being accessible.

00:36:29:15 - 00:36:48:24

Unknown

What residents really dislike is that I'm standing in front of them. They tell me they have a problem, and I say, oh, you have to go tell someone else because it's not my job. And it goes to this convoluted system. So we're we're spending the next three years trying to focus on how we can give those people, you see, the power to sort out the things that you want sorted out, preferably now.

00:36:49:01 - 00:37:09:11

Unknown

And so I'm really excited about, you know, how we can kind of do that because I've been around long enough that I remember when we used to have, you know, estate managers or even superintendents, I think they were called that lived there. Yes. Every kind of there. And so you could go down and tell them that this was happening or that was happening or whatever it happened to be, you needed a repair done.

00:37:09:13 - 00:37:27:16

Unknown

And they were kind of right on the spot. Yeah. The world of technology and improvements and call centres and all of that, it's kind of changed that. And it's give it a bit of distance between service delivery organisations and the people that they're there to, to serve. And so we're spending the next three years closing that gap and getting much closer.

00:37:27:18 - 00:37:50:14

Unknown

More specifically in my own little patch. It all excites me, as you could probably, I can tell. Yeah, that's amazing. But I agree that we we've got some real opportunities in some of our homeless provision, to, to increase that working with the Greater London Authority, kind of improving the kind of capital programs to unlock more homes, but also improving the support that we can give people kind of coming off the streets.

00:37:50:14 - 00:38:08:04

Unknown

I'm really keen in that. As you can see, the numbers, you can see with your own eyes, the numbers going up and cities like London. So being able to be part of that solution is something I'm really looking forward to. Well on that, optimistic and inspiring note and hopefully a call for the housing associations to be treasured.

00:38:08:10 - 00:38:26:13

Unknown

Stephen Burns, thank you so much for coming in and sharing your vision with us. My pleasure. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. If you've enjoyed this episode, please like, follow and subscribe wherever you receive your podcasts. If you want to learn more about how we're truly turning the dial on health and social care, please visit New Cross Healthcare Dicom Forward Slash voices okay.

00:38:26:18 - 00:38:33:01

Unknown

In the meantime, I'm Suhail Mirza. Thank you very much for joining us today, and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode. I

00:38:33:01 - 00:38:43:03